The Student Sessions
The Student Sessions
Episode 13: Mental Health, Chloe Ambrose and Ally Garton, University of Lincoln
In this episode Tonia is joined by Chloe and Ally who share their experiences of the mental health issues they have faced. They talk about their journey and the mechanisms they have put in place to help them succeed with their studies, careers and beyond.
Welcome to the Student Sessions, the unedited podcast for students and graduates that tells it like it is and addresses the issues that are important to you today and every day. Brought to you by Greha Media and hosted by Tonja Galati.
SPEAKER_04:And welcome to the student sessions with me, Tonya. Today I'm joined by Ali and Chloe. Ali is a computer science graduate going on to pursue a research master's in human-computer interaction. Having struggled with her mental health throughout her first two years at university, Ali is keen to encourage more open conversations around the subject. In 2021, Ali will be travelling to Fiji to work with remote villages on sustainability goals, education and physical and mental health. With her passion for emphatic brand experiences and creative marketing, Chloe now runs her own marketing consultancy in Cambridge, a few years after graduating from her media production degree. Chloe hopes to share her take on mental health having spent the last of her pennies on bettering her relationship with herself and others to lead a more thriving self-driven lifestyle. Hi Ali, hi Chloe. Hiya. Hi, nice to see you. Welcome to the shoot sessions. Thanks very much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you. It's going to be good.
SPEAKER_04:Let's start by hearing a little bit more about you both and your journey to university. Ali, do you want to start us off?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay. Well, I'm from Milton Keynes and I lived there all my life. I decided I wanted to go to university in year 10, I think. It was always going to be computer science or computer related. I stumbled across Lincoln when I was in year 11 and eventually settled on that in the end when it was time to make a decision. And I'm actually the second person in my family to go to university. My mum graduated from the University of Manchester in 1994. And now that I've graduated, I'll be doing a master's by research in computer science next year.
SPEAKER_01:Brilliant. Chloe? Yeah, so I also went to Lincoln and really wanted to study media production I just I think I was getting better grades in media and although I always wanted to pursue a career in drama and the arts I thought hmm why not pursue a career maybe directing but the the journey in my kind of media career has certainly changed over the last few years but yeah university was great it was a really good experience I'd encouraged lots of people to go and yeah it's kind of really helped shape my career moving forward so it's been a good experience
SPEAKER_04:and we've heard in the introduction there how successful you've both been already in such a relatively short time. Today's theme is mental health which is as we know a huge topic that impacts individuals from all ages, background, ethnicity and social status. So before we get going and so that we're all on the same page, Chloe could you define what we mean by mental health or how you interpret mental health for you? I guess
SPEAKER_01:yeah my journey with mental health has been I don't know what the the benchmark is of of what people go through with mental health, but it's just the process of looking after your mental state, I would say. What ways you do that in is really kind of tailored to you, which is why over the last few years, it's been such a... roller coaster ride of figuring out what works for me because i know that if something different might work for somebody else so yeah just looking after your mental stage really
SPEAKER_04:yeah and it's a very personal journey and as you said there it's very different for for everybody um there's lots of different types of mental health disorders and can you tell us what some of these are ali
SPEAKER_02:uh yeah well there's a huge array obviously you've got mood disorders anxiety disorders sort of eating personality uh and like chloe said they all affect everyone just a little bit differently depending on or just depending on who you are really don't they
SPEAKER_04:so before we go into the interview and we hear a little bit more about both of you i just wanted to flag for our listeners that if any of you or anyone you know is or may be experiencing challenges with their mental health please do seek out the free and confidential support available via your institutions doctors and some of the charities such as mind calm and samaritans so let me come to you first chloe tell us a bit about your story and your challenges or struggles with mental health?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course. So I'm somebody who, especially now, is very self-aware, whereas back at university, I kind of always knew that I was a happy-go-lucky person. But when it came to socialising with new people or just putting myself out there, I realised that I had an internal monologue that was constantly putting myself down or holding me back from just taking those strides forward. And I remember kind of confiding in people saying I'm happy but I just don't feel content inside. I just don't feel it as much as I maybe want to or should. And I started questioning whether my social anxiety was something that I really had to live with. And it was really difficult, actually, because I came out to my parents and my friends saying, oh, this is what happens inside, inside of my mind. And they said, oh, well, that's normal. Everybody kind of puts themselves down and does this and does that. And I'm like, but I don't want it to be my normal anymore, you know? So I actually had to kind of go on the on my own journey by myself having questioned you know what if I'm to get into the media industry where I'm networking with people I cannot be meeting new people and thinking in the back of my head oh my god they don't find me interesting are they never going to give me a job or I used to tell myself I look silly in my glasses or you look like a nerd in your glasses and I thought I cannot be having these things after I'm graduated holding me back because that's going to be the difference between succeeding and not succeeding so that's kind of the start of my journey really.
SPEAKER_04:Okay thanks for sharing that Chloe and we'll come on to some of the mechanisms and things that you've put into place in a minute. What about you Ali what's your story?
SPEAKER_02:Well for me there was kind of a bit more of a clear trigger And I guess it can go either way when you've got some mental health issues. But it's probably rooted around the time I was finishing year 11 and my friends at the time seemed to be getting closer and closer and I was starting to feel quite isolated. So when I started sixth form, I wasn't in the best place sort of mentally and it only got worse and worse because I just sort of ignored it. And the situation at school got worse and worse. And by the time I finished, I was so desperate to get out and I felt like I just didn't have anybody anymore. But just getting out of sixth form didn't improve my mental health on its own. Sort of the damage had already been done. So by the time I got to university, I realised that I was just in a terrible, terrible place. I didn't, because I was feeling depressed, I didn't connect with people as much as most people do at the start of university, I'd say. Yeah. And so I didn't always have the energy to go out or to meet new people, which obviously in turn that made it worse again. And for whatever reason, I thought I could just cope and keep on pushing through completely by myself, which is not a great idea. And in the end, it was a hospital trip regarding something else. that pushed me to go to my GP and they diagnosed me with mild depression although I'm sure everyone who's been diagnosed with mild depression will tell you it doesn't feel that mild at the time but I was referred to a local NHS mental health service and I've been sort of on the mend since then.
SPEAKER_04:I think what's some of the some of the articles and stuff where people are sharing their stories around mental health they do say that actually it's a really weird experience when you're going through it because obviously if you've broken your leg you can see you've broken your leg whereas actually if there's something not quite right in your mind it's very hard for your own mind to tell you that there's not something wrong with your mind
SPEAKER_02:yeah definitely
SPEAKER_04:yeah And did you feel like that, Ali? Did you feel that there wasn't something quite right, but you didn't actually know what it was? Or did you actually feel like this isn't right?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I guess I knew it wasn't right. It wasn't right that I should be feeling like this because I've always been a really happy person, always had loads and loads of friends. And so to suddenly feel like I didn't have anybody at all, I think I knew that that wasn't good. And it was kind of doing something to my mind that wasn't right. Kind of hard to, it's hard to realise. when it's actually happening.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, we may have some listeners who have heard both of your stories and may be thinking, oh gosh, you know, I feel a little bit like that, or I might be struggling, but I don't really want to say anything because it makes me feel silly or I feel a bit weak. What would you say to that, Chloe?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I would argue that it's not a weakness. I think it's incredibly brave and it's great to exercise self-awareness in the sense that if you are not happy with something in your life or not happy with something going on with yourself, then that takes, yeah, a lot of bravery and courage to kind of, um question the status quo as as i kind of was mentioning earlier that there is this perceived norm that we should be putting ourselves down or holding ourselves back i mean i know there was a completely completely forgot but an earlier time when i was a little bit more depressed when i kind of latched on to a certain concept in my head which i didn't understand it happened to be the concept of death um i kind of spiraled out of control over that um and i can compensate that when you're at your lowest point yeah you probably do feel weak because you don't feel fully like yourself we don't really feel fully complete but I would just say that that it's just a habit of for me personally it was me getting myself into a bad habit and having learned those bad habits from my parents because they too kind of put themselves down or um there's this thing and I'll keep rambling on about where your locus of control is and sometimes we put the control of ourselves and our lives out there in the world but you want to be kind of like in control and that's what I mean so if you have had the capacity to question what you're not happy with then that's you're more in control now than you ever were before so you know give yourself some credit that you are taking that first step and it's not weakness at all it's it's actually very brave and very courageous and yeah
SPEAKER_04:it's good. And what do you think on that point Ali?
SPEAKER_02:I think Chloe's absolutely right about it not being a weakness you have to sort of embrace it and use it to become stronger I think it's important to remember that mental health problems can be treated just like physical health problems. You said before about the broken leg example. My mum loves to use that example saying, you know, if you if you break your leg. you'd get professional help and then recover. So why should we treat mental health differently? And the process, you know, it might take a bit longer, but it's the same steps if you think about it. So if you think about having a broken leg, you'd have an x-ray to find out the exact problem. A treatment plan would be figured out. And then it's about, I guess, monitoring your progress in recovery. So it's exactly the same with mental health. You have to forget that, you know, there might be a wait time that things might go wrong. Um, it's you have to be really brave and reach out and then once you're recovering you kind of look back and think oh god what was stopping me you know I could have been feeling this fine all along
SPEAKER_01:yeah I was gonna say Ali with the with the kind of like broken um leg analogy as well it's actually so when you break your leg you've kind of got the pain so you can kind of there's that connection there with your mind and your body and thinking right something's wrong and I think it's really hard to tell those signs when you're you know maybe your mental health is not as good as it should be and it's yeah I've to be in connection with your body yeah and think right what are those signs I always say to people when I haven't tidied my room or eat lots of chocolate and stop exercising that's usually when my mind's starting to go into a bad place again and just to know what those triggers are is a good kind of practice
SPEAKER_02:yeah definitely I think that's probably why people don't think like that as well because you've got the pain and you can see that it's not right you have to actually really think about it to see actually it's it's sort of the same steps to recovery whether it's physical or mental and I think as well that the cliche about therapists saying you have to want to change I think that that's quite accurate as well people laugh about it but the more you you know you think yeah I really want to get better I think the braver you'll be about speaking up
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's a lot of hard work it really is a lot of hard work it's like going to the gym for the first time actually getting your foot out the front door and going there the first time is really really challenging and I think like what you guys say it's almost when you have a broken leg you say right put my leg in a cast and it kind of mends itself for you but with mental health you really do have to put in the work and for the work it's once you put in the work it's incredible because I've got to a state where I don't think I'm at that state now but I did before get my mental health to a really good point where i was just really content and wasn't holding myself back and it just felt incredible and it is worth the effort so you just got to keep moving yourself forward
SPEAKER_04:i mean sticking with the broken leg uh here i mean there's lots of things you can break if you had broken your leg you would tell people i've broken my leg but with mental health do you think people are as open about their experiences and what do you think the benefits are of being open about it?
SPEAKER_01:I think there's this perception that talking about mental health comes with weakness, as we mentioned before, and people don't really want to open up because they might be perceived as weak, but what you find is actually when you do start opening up to friends and family and make sure you find the right people to open up to because you know that we do have friends and family that are there for certain reasons in our life and you've got to identify that that friend might be a really good friend for going out with but they might not be good for confiding in and you have to kind of distinguish which friends are best talked to but that's kind of like another conversation in itself but yeah you'll find that the more you open up the more everybody else is going through the exact same thing and I know everybody always says that but we are we really are going through the same thing um if it's not I think we've all suffered from mental health at some point in our lives. I'd be very surprised if somebody on this podcast listening in hasn't suffered in one way or another.
SPEAKER_04:So let's reflect back then. Upon reflection, knowing what you know now, do you wish you'd support, help and advice sooner? And I'll come to you first, Chloe.
SPEAKER_01:100%. I would argue that I wish I was just taught about these things earlier on in life so I didn't have to get to the point where I had to seek help and advice. because I think if I was taught the value of believing in myself not thinking that being selfish is you know bad for example and just you know I'm a massive people pleaser as well and actually getting into the habit of that can cause you to not put your own mental health first and also to get into bad relationships as well but yeah I do wish that I sought help sooner I think I probably would have lived a much happier life sooner but then again I can't turn back the clock now so I'm just happy that it's unfolding it the way that it has
SPEAKER_04:and what about you Ali
SPEAKER_02:oh definitely I've been in hindsight I should have been talking about my mental health you know kind of age 16 and if not then then definitely definitely while I was in sixth form but I just didn't I sort of just ignored it and I don't I don't really know why that is I guess you just kind of wish it wasn't happening and so kind of shut it out um I'm a bit sad that it took me as long as a year and a half into uni to to reach out and and find some help because once I was on my way to getting better my third year was absolutely fantastic obviously the workload was more because it was the final year but I ended up doing so much stuff in between that I would just felt I was so much more happy and I felt like I could actually sit down and and do some work and it all just came to me much easier so I definitely should have sought help earlier yes
SPEAKER_04:And do you think that your mental health defines who you are Ellie?
SPEAKER_02:Well yeah I do really because there's no doubt that struggling with mental health can change you and I think if I hadn't gone through some of the more difficult times I wouldn't actually be the person that I am now and having been doing a lot better and you know made lots of great friends and memories in my final year I quite like the person that I am now so I definitely think that I partially credit who I am now to my struggles with my mental health because it helped me get to where I am now really.
SPEAKER_04:And what about you Chloe?
SPEAKER_01:I guess it's the way that the questions were phrased. I don't know, I would, I don't think I'd like mental health to define me but I know that it has helped shape me like Ali has said. I know if we kind of turn back the clock and think when we were, when all our mental health were kind of like at a bad state should that define who we are when we're in a bad way? No, because our mental health is something that can be helped and sorted. So if somebody asked me, does your mental health define you who you are? Back when I was, yeah, at a really bad stage in my life, I would be really upset to say, yes, it does define me. Because I think, I used to perceive myself in a certain way, to think that I was a weirdo, that I'd never have any friends, that nobody would like me. And those were limiting beliefs that I had about myself. And I thought that that's who I was as a person. I 100% believe that. And as I started unpicking those beliefs that I had about myself that my social anxiety and awkwardness was something that was a part of me. As soon as I got rid of that belief, I actually turned into the person that I never thought I could be, which was somebody who wasn't defined by, you know, weakness and awkwardness. And so I would argue it doesn't define who I am, no, because I think people out there might um you know when they go for jobs and things they might not want to bring up their mental health or problems because they don't want people to judge them accordingly um so yeah i guess i don't know if i made any sense there but i would say yeah okay cool that's good
SPEAKER_04:um so for both of you i think the challenges you faced with mental health you you haven't let them get in the way of your career prospects and you're both doing really well but that's not to dismiss the fact that obviously I'm sure there are times when you, you know, kind of revert back and you kind of go through things, but you don't necessarily show that to the world. But let's talk about some of the mechanisms that you've put in place to support you and help you get to where you are. Chloe, if you could just tell us a little bit about some of the things that you've put in place for yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Things that I have put in place. Well, when I left university, I only had£600 worth of money. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to invest all of my money into this program and it was this program that kind of helped people to live a more thriving lifestyle and it just taught you about a couple of the things that I've been speaking about in this last half an hour about limiting beliefs and negative thoughts so I yeah I went on to a program that really helped me adopt better habits but I think you could equally buy books that also teach you about these things and then apart from that like I said again it's like going to the gym you can't just go to the gym get yourself to a really good state and stop going to the gym it is a continuous thing and you do have to keep check of it so you can do like daily gratitudes but most importantly find what works for you so what I feel is if I'm mostly grounded when I go out into nature and I go for walks and I actually really dislike meditating but yeah find get to know your body and how you can press those buttons to make yourself feel better. And I think the more we accept that it's an individual journey and not a one size fits all, the easier it will be to kind of find the state that you're seeking.
SPEAKER_04:And is it important, Chloe, to know kind of what your triggers are and what the things are that will derail you? so that you can manage
SPEAKER_01:oh oh most definitely and it's also good to know your triggers because you can start challenging them so I knew that meeting strangers for the first time actually made me really nervous but the more I put myself into those situations and I started to slow my mind down and thought right let's see what's going on up in my head because more often than not if you feel a bit anxious it's actually tied to a thought so I would actually start going on dates with strangers and not well I was kind of interested in them but hopefully more like an exercise I know this sounds really bad if someone's listening to now was this me but yeah I'd go out and exercise that by knowing what was going on in my head and knowing how my body felt and just really really being connected to it and aware of it definitely get to know your body and your mind
SPEAKER_04:more okay great thanks Chloe and what about you Ali what mechanisms have you put in place to support you
SPEAKER_02:well I think again Chloe's absolutely spot on it's such an individual thing But for me, I do my best to keep myself in a routine, not a really strict one. But it's just stuff like I make sure I'm not lying around in bed all morning, for example, or staying up all night watching Netflix, which is easily done, especially with coronavirus at the moment. Obviously, it's easy to lie around doing nothing. But I just try to make sure that I'm not doing that and that I I have things I need to be doing, so I'm just getting through the day and doing them. Oh, and trying to eat my three meals in a day as well, I guess, like breakfast, lunch, dinner. And for me, it's quite surprising the effect that that's had on my mental health, just eating properly, sleeping properly. And once I'm kind of in a good routine with that, just maintaining a good balance of everything, like socialising with people, because I know from my experiences with my mental health that I like to feel like I have friends, like I... and communicate with people but also not too much so that I don't feel overwhelmed with it all and yeah like Chloe said with going for walks as well I get some exercise like that to stay healthy and to get outside but I don't I don't enjoy doing heavy workouts, so I don't work myself to absolute exhaustion. For me, it's all about finding a good balance.
UNKNOWN:Great.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Well, I'm mindful that we've come to the end of our time together, but if you were to both look back at who you were before you had your diagnosis, how do you feel you have changed? And I'll come to you first, Ali.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I kind of feel like what I've been through and then the recovery of that as well has been... almost freeing for lack of a better word like for example I know that I'd have been really disappointed if someone told me in sixth form or in my first year that I'd end up graduating with a 2.1 which is silly because it's a great grade but at the time being so unhappy I think I measured success and happiness in that kind of artificial way and I was definitely a bit of a perfectionist and I think I think that that came from feeling so depressed, but also it made the depression worse. So it was kind of a dark and difficult time for a few years there. But now that I've sort of come out the other side, I think I'm more thoughtful and compassionate. I hope I am anyway. And a lot more considerate of how other people might be feeling and what the things that they might be saying really mean and so I'm fine yeah I'm finally happy with who I am kind of now that I've come through it all and how I got to be this person
SPEAKER_04:brilliant and what about you Chloe
SPEAKER_01:well one thing that I needed to accept and I've accepted it mostly in the last two years is that we will come to meet many different versions of ourselves and there will never be a right this is the version of myself that's going to be sticking with me for the rest of my life now um and we have to appreciate the journey and the enjoyment that we can get from meeting those different versions of ourself. But the core of us never really, never truly changes. I think the best version of you or the better versions of you are inside and we just have these filters over the top of us. Like I said about bad habits, right? That's kind of maybe like a gray filter that I've put over myself or I've labeled or drawn myself in certain ways. And back in the past when I did have really bad social anxiety and just used to put myself down so much, like I said, I thought that was me. This is me and I have to accept that that is who I am. But it actually took a lot of courage to turn around and say, well, no, because I don't want this to be me. I don't want to be held back by these things. And I actually think that deep inside there's probably a version of me that i don't know just embodies all that i have to offer in the world and all that i have to offer myself as well so I appreciate that I was different before, but like what Ali said, I'm so much more appreciative of who I am now. Last year in particular, I was a very positive poly and now I have a much better relationship with positivity because I used to absolutely obsess over being a positive person, but that is not sustainable and actually not healthy. So yeah, I'm very happy with the person that I am now and I'm so happy that I went on that journey, but I might be a different person in a year time but I know that by putting my mental health first I'm just going to get better and stronger and wiser and that's important thing.
SPEAKER_04:Brilliant thank you so much both of you for joining us on the student sessions today and also a huge thanks for being so open and for sharing your stories you both are an inspiration. Thank you. The University of Lincoln was awarded gold, the highest standard possible in the National Teaching Excellence Framework, an independent assessment of teaching quality in UK higher education. The award reflects exciting teaching, great support for students and excellent employment outcomes. Lincoln is ranked in the UK top 20 in the Garden University Guide 2020. The institution is known for a pioneering approach to working with employers, which has been recognised with the Lord Stafford Award and Times Higher Education Award. Among their most recent graduates, 96% are in work or further study six months after finishing their course with more than 80% in graduate level roles. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's episode and do join us again on the student sessions. If you or anyone you know may be experiencing challenges with mental health, please do seek the free and confidential support available via institutions, doctors and charities such as Mind Calm and Samaritans.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to the student sessions brought to you by Greyhair Media and hosted by Tonya Galati. Never miss an episode by subscribing and if you like what you've heard today, why not leave a review and please tell your friends. We'll see you at the next session.